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Post by d on Jun 13, 2006 18:20:16 GMT -4
Pcups let's say you (whatever civ) and two allies are going to be rushed at 9:00 with 30 jans, 17 grenadiers and 15 uhlans. I won't tell you which one will be attacked. What do you do? By the time any ally can get there to help, you're toast. Unless all your armies attack together you'll lose. If you wait for everyone to get there to attack as one, it will be too late. The grenadiers and jans kill all buildings and the uhlans kill any escaping settlers. Total destruction. The attack is fast and complete. It's worst than a grenadier/janissary rush.
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Post by pcups on Jun 13, 2006 20:28:47 GMT -4
Well, firstly if all 3 of you somehow manage to attack my team on a 3v3 map which is pretty large at 9 minutes then i commend you. But in reality to get that many units(especially uhlans) then it would be more like 11 minutes.
Lets look at 9 minutes
We will use the spanish. I would have 10 lancers and 5 skirms on a good day, 8 lancers on a bad day. Now usually when i see a different color on the mini map i immediately grab my units and start moving them, i dont wait for someone to say help. And then it depends where i am on the map. If my allies could bring skirms and pikemen then we have a pretty good chance of deffeating you.
A bunch of Ifs on this one D...
If it were 11 minutes we would kick the crap out of it.
If i were ports i would have a crap load cassadors. And PROBABLY 5 dragoons. Depends if i get the card. If i can do a boat boom i can probably add some other things into the mix.
If if if...
If i had till 11 minutes with germans i dont know, i would probably be able to get 2 merc shipments.
I could probably have 9 war wagons, i have been building those recently and they seem to kick ass. But its just 9 war wagons, and around 10 uhlans. Depends on how many shipments i get.
Now that goes for me, tell me who my allies are and i will try and guess their situation.
There are a bunch of ifs D, but it looks like it leans towards the point of failure. It could stop his economy for a while, MAYBe cripple him, but wouldnt destroy him.
The war wagons would own the grens and uhlans and tim's skirms can handle jannies...
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Post by boorules60 on Jun 14, 2006 0:02:08 GMT -4
Does it really take you 11 minutes to get 15 uhlans? I would hope not... if I can have 17 granades in someones base at 8:45, you should have 15 uhlans easy (they are cheaper AND free).
The biggest problem with this rush is that there are NO units in the second age that can stop it, and if you do a FF and get to the third age, you've essentially "wasted" 2200 resources aging up and will not have enough units to stop it. Plus, third age units are often more expensive and you won't have enough time to get too many 3rd age shipments.
Lancers wouldn't be a terrible choice, except I don't think you could get enough of them to have the firepower you need to stop the rush. The jans/cossacks/uhlans could easily take you out unless you had about 20 (which you won't).
Mercs could be interesting, but the same problem occurs... could you have enough without totally crippling your own economy.
I DARE you to send cassadores into this mess. You saw what happened to Tim's skirms....
The rush will NOT hit you at 11 minutes. I promise. If we do, it would be a more traditional FF attack (not a rush at that point) and my 17 grenadiers would be 25 veteran grenadiers; D would have 50 veteran jans; and the cavalry person would probably also have veteran whatever.
There's no doubt that you can and will help your ally, it's just the problem of coming up with enough units to stop the rush when it hits. If you go 3rd age... can you get enough. If not, can you really counter the Russians and Ottos with your second age crap? I dunno.
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Post by pcups on Jun 14, 2006 15:04:58 GMT -4
Play the germans Ben and get 15 uhlans. Thats 1500 gold, plus the 300 wood for the houses. Its messy sometimes, you can get 15 uhlans but you kinda shit on the FF if you do.
Ok you said something about cassadors... What do you think im going to do? Melee? they have like a billion range and your grens arent fast enough to stop them. Neither are the jannies. The uhlans are but luckily i will have dragoons there. Most likely, if not...
And hey, if you want it to be a 3rd age battle, be my guest.
And i can have 2 age 3 shipments waiting for me with the spanish. 1 with the germans or ports.
You see, im not so sure about my allies, I know tim can handle it. With allies helping him that is.
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Post by d on Jun 14, 2006 19:03:59 GMT -4
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Post by pcups on Jun 14, 2006 19:56:26 GMT -4
Pretty good, with a good 10 peasants there...
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Post by pcups on Jun 14, 2006 19:57:03 GMT -4
I guess you guys never thought about something... oh never mind, ill let you find out for your selves.
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Post by boorules60 on Jun 14, 2006 21:52:38 GMT -4
My grenade rush allows me to continue to the third age by 9-9:30... I never stop building peasants... and my population is 80 when I hit the enemy base at 8:30. What D was suggesting is that you could easily have 15 uhlans without sacrificing much. Yeah, it might add another 2-3 mins to your FF, but that's what rushing does. And who gives a shit if you do because your opponent is dead! I have 17 granades at that time so there's no reason you couldn't have 17 uhlans and continue to build up your peasant pop.
I know you love your FF, but keep this in mind (everyone). In every single Ages III game that I've ever played... the first person to resign has always been on the losing team. Always. Therefore, even if the rushing team is delayed in getting to Age III... it doesn't matter. The remaining allies just CAN'T beat all 3 of them. Period. Think of all the games we've ever played... the out numbered team has always lost, except Ben Pat and D vs 5, and none of us resigned because the rush was so sucessful.
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Post by pcups on Jun 14, 2006 21:58:06 GMT -4
I know the grenadere rush is very effective and can usually win a game, i just never really saw the clear solution until now! Its very simple, you just... oh ill tell tim.
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Post by boorules60 on Jun 14, 2006 22:00:37 GMT -4
BTW... good luck with the cassadores. You won't have enough of them to make a difference. How will they be able to handle 15 uhlans, 5 cossacks, and 17 granades? The cavalry will take them down really fast (5 dragoons could never kill them fast enough ) and they will never beat my grenadiers with their 50% ranged armor and 200 HP... that's like having 400 HP vs cassadores. The cassadores will therefore need about 20 "hits" to kill a grenadiers; the grenadier will need 2 (not to mention area effect). They are not so much faster than the grenadiers that a hit and run would work, especially not with 20 horses pounding away at them. I want to know how many cassadores + dragoons you will have at 8:30... which is the exact moment that D and I will be in Tim's base.
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Post by d on Jun 15, 2006 6:37:58 GMT -4
At 7:39 I can have 15 hussars. You may notice that I'm collecting a recent shipment of gold and have another shipment available. I could start researching age III very soon and get a 1300 wood shipment to build extra town centers, mosque, market etc. I will also soon have the resources to get veteren hussars. Beware the Turks.
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Post by pcups on Jun 15, 2006 17:26:11 GMT -4
you guys act like i am going to be the only one deffending. Maybe i will be, but infact this thing is just really easy to beat. So i will talk to tim and about it. And then we will own.
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Post by boorules60 on Jun 16, 2006 2:59:57 GMT -4
Here's some math for your inquiring mind. Let's say that Tim hypothetically can get 24 Ruyters in 8:30 when D and I hit his base. Ignoring the janissaries for a second... let's see what happens when ruyters and grenadiers go at each other:
Age 2 Grenadier: 200 HP, 54 seige attack, 50% ranged armor Age 3 Ruyter: 200 HP, 17 ranged attack, 0% ranged armor
They have equal range and rate of fire... so hitting and running won't matter. Now, the ruyter has X2 vs the grenadier but the grenadier has 50% ranged armor. Those cancel. Each ruyter will hit the grenadier 17. Thus, it will take 12 ruyter hits to kill a grenadier. If I have 17 grenadiers... that's 204 hits to wipe out my army. Now, the grenadier has X.5 vs. the ruyter so its attack is reduced to 26. So it will take me 7 hits to kill each ruyter, and if he has 24 of them... or 168 total hits to wipe them all out.
If you've been following me, I need fewer hits but have fewer units. Vice versa for him. I don't think I could beat him, but my point is that the grenadiers are pretty effective against the ruyters... so don't count on being able to defeat the grenadiers. You must also remember:
-Putting them on melee is stupid; D will slaughter him in 3-4 hits because the speed advantage you had is now gone. -Using cassadores is stupid; I need 2 hits to kill a cassadore... you need almost 20 to kill me, and about 5-6 to kill D -None of my stats include area effect... with a good hit, suspect I could kill an army of 20 cassadores in one round with a proper shot. Trying to hit and run with me will not help you cause too much. Tim will the be defenseless against the janissaries. -D and I can kill a TC in 15 seconds together. Could you even kill us in time if we did NOTHING to you? -You haven't stopped the cossacks running around and killing cassadores and peasants. -Tim will NOT have 24 ruyters at 8:30... or even 8:45 if we're late. Patrick will NOT be waiting in Tim's base at 8:30-45 with an army of 20 cassadores and 5 dragoons. If Patrick waits until Tim is done "cleaning out the grenadiers"... he will be sorely grieved when he finds out that Tim was only able to kill 5 of them because he was defending 2v1 and Patrick will then also face a 2v1. -Don't try to attack us sooner than that, we have that covered too -What happens if D and I DON'T pull the rush?
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Post by pcups on Jun 16, 2006 14:31:26 GMT -4
You act as if Tim and i are the worst players bien. We know what happens if so and so. And again im not going to say anything more.
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Post by boorules60 on Jun 17, 2006 2:56:34 GMT -4
Please, do share! We've given our strategy away down to an exact science. If you have another strategy or a counter-strategy, here's the place to share it. Are you going to Chelsea's today?
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