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Post by Jake P. on Nov 8, 2007 20:53:08 GMT -4
Now I might be thinking too inside the box with this one, but why not (for 3 v 3 treat) have all the asians on a team. The chinese and indian eco is so kick ass that it makes up for the lacking japanese economy. The Japanese and indian units are rediculously powerful. The chinese flamethrowers are crazy and with all their team cards it would be a pretty good mix.
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Post by boorules60 on Nov 9, 2007 0:54:58 GMT -4
Eh... probably wouldn't be terrible. The only weakness that group would have is in unit production since they don't have tons of upgrades that help that. Spamming with any of these three civs can be dangerous if not impossible, but I do think that their units work together well. We'll have to give it a whirl sometime!
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Post by pcups on Nov 10, 2007 16:03:23 GMT -4
Ben, I know china has a good eco, but pulling your self back (or who ever) and just feed people resources wont work. Just the basics of a treaty game, the person with the most units wins. If its a 4v4 and you pull your units, its a 4 on 3. Which is impossible to win. Might as well be the russians! Most civs can steady their resources and still fight, even the sioux.
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Post by boorules60 on Nov 12, 2007 2:20:41 GMT -4
Keep in mind Patrick, I'm not advocating a complete withdrawal from the military part of the game because they still have a 100 pop army on top of this all!!! Is NOT a 4v3 becuse you coudl have 25 flamethrowers doing almost 500 damage to infantry every 3 seconds... or 50 metor hammers or iron flails who are also some of the best heave cav in the game. And unlike the Iros, the pop bonus requires no micro! The basic concept behind it is something you'll learn in econ called comparative advantage. The Chinese can afford to devote a higher percentage of their economy to basing and resources gathering because it is their strength (comparative advantage), and therefore they should help the people that have a comparative advantage in military. Most of all, those of US who have a comparative advantage in basing and eco stuff can do the same thing.
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Post by pcups on Nov 12, 2007 3:40:47 GMT -4
Well, im confused, whats the difference between that and normal treaty play? People build units and trade resources.
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Post by punkybruster on Dec 14, 2007 19:47:37 GMT -4
Ben had claimed that the Chinese, like the Ottos, have a phenomenal eco, but are limited by poor unit production speeds. They have shipments that cut the banner army train time by 50%, but that really isn't enough compared to the euro 90% on cav or 75% on inf. However, pair them with a russian (for team dueling school) and a spanish (for team archaic inf train speed) and the following happens: Old Han (3 chu + 3 pike) = >100% Standard (3 chu + 2 steppe) = 87% Ming (2 pike + 3 keshik) = 87% Territorial (3 swd + 3 arq) = 75% Forbidden (2 ironF + 2 meteorH) = 50% Imperial (3 arq + 2 ironF) = 62%
That's it for their War Academy armies, which is going to be the bulk of their military. The result is they can keep up with any euro for unit production. Also they would give the Russians instant grenadiers, and the Spanish faster cannons (which can be parked in back with a few missionaries).
The thing is the spanish and the russians are awesome on their own, but together with the chinese, I think they really could kick some shit.
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Post by boorules60 on Dec 14, 2007 22:58:18 GMT -4
Imagine if we paired that with the Ottomans, Ports or the Aztecs for a 4v4. You never run out of resources, and they now have the fast building units that they lacked before as well. I suggest them because we need some serious anti heavy cav (aka: good ranged cav) and good artillery in that combo so I think these civs would really help. The Chinese really are a good treat civ minus the unit building problem which the Russians and Spanish fix. Let's try it on Sunday the 23rd!
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Post by pcups on Dec 18, 2007 17:18:55 GMT -4
Which chinese units count as archaic? Because if its just quang or what ever pikemen and chukonus... too bad. I'm not familiar with the chinese third age units and so forth but chu ko nus gotta be the worst thing against everything but heavy infantry.
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Post by boorules60 on Dec 18, 2007 19:57:33 GMT -4
I believe chukunus and quangs count as archaic infantry, but they, as well as their swordsman and skirms, then they have a real advantage. Actually, chukunus are the best unit against light cavalry in the game because they have a card that gives them an additional 1x multiplier against them and after all their upgrades and cards, they are the most cost effective solution to light cav in the game at range. But now that you mention it, it might not make sense to have both the spanish and the russians. I really feel like this team could benefit from the Aztecs or some civ with solid anti cav and then maybe the ottoman who also benefit from infantry and arti train speed
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Post by pcups on Dec 18, 2007 20:48:45 GMT -4
The games I have played as China, my enemy has obliterated my chu ko nus with like 5 heavy cav units. Well, I guess if you have the Spanish guy on your team lancers wont be a problem Oh and ill be that spanish guy
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Post by boorules60 on Dec 18, 2007 22:13:39 GMT -4
Yeah, actually its kinda sad. The Chinese, like the Russians, have a real problem against cav. Tim and I did the math, and their cav archer unit the Keshik is very much like a Ruyter which is a good anti cav unit except they don't build very quickly... unless you have the infantry cards that help banner armies they are produced in! I can't wait to play a shitload of games over break!
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Post by pcups on Dec 18, 2007 22:40:40 GMT -4
Well ive been trying to call tim tonight to see if he wants to do some ages. his cell phone is off though
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Post by d on Jul 14, 2008 14:47:28 GMT -4
I've given up on the Chinese for treaty. Sorry Josh. Their unit production speed is just too slow. If given the choice of one slow producing unit (jans) or all slow producing units, I'll take the Turks. Both have great economies. On a standars map, I can get 99 vills in 23 mins. I know for natives and Ports that sucks, but it's good enough. With the Turks.I don't have a wood problem late game. I can build the exact unit required. Not some weird combo. I'm liking the mosque construction card. Just when I build my mosque, everything gets 33% cheaper and I still have the shipments I need when the treaty breaks. Here are the shipments in order prior to the treaty breaking,
eco therory 700 gold mosque constr (improvements 33% less) land grab (farms and plantations cost less and build fast) refrig factory (wood) factory (wood) mint stonemasons (walls and bldgs build fast) engin school riding school adv arsenal improved bldg janisarry combat
Land grab comes just when I need farms and plantations.
Stonemasons comes when I need walls and bldgs. Ally me with a Russian and watch out!
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Post by boorules60 on Jul 16, 2008 20:12:16 GMT -4
Hey D!
I think the idea of a change is good, but I think you should remove the following cards from your initial line up:
mosque constr - It does almost nothing for you in the long run. Saving 33% on your mosque upgrades is NOTHING in comparison to what a wood, farm or plantation would give you before the treaty breaks.
improved bldg - Although this guy is handy, it doesn't help your walls very much. I personally think you'd be better off sending it as the second card after the treaty breaks when you actually have some barracks stables and arty foundries that need to stay alive. It's not good until those are built
janisarry combat - This is another one that should be your first card after the break. I think CHEAP jans would be better initially because it saves you resources while building them and stays there for the entire game.
My Otto line up would look something like this:
eco therory 700 gold wood gathering (20%)* land grab (farms and plantations cost less and build fast) refrig factory (wood) factory (wood) mint textile mill** stonemasons (walls and bldgs build fast) engin school riding school adv arsenal cheap jans***
* Wood gathering is infinitely better than cheap mosque stuff. It help you as you are gathering wood for TC's, mosque upgrades, and farms/plantations. You also clear out woods faster for walls and have more wood when the treaty breaks which could also help your allies.
** Textile mill allows you to gather tons of extra gold before the treaty breaks as well, since in most games, mines only last for 20 minutes or so.
*** On second thought, cheap jans, jan combat and improvd buildings might be interchangeable. This is your 14th shipment which may not happen on every map.
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Post by d on Jul 16, 2008 22:38:05 GMT -4
Interestingly, I put hard woods in my deck this morning.
Cheap jans is later. I only have 20 or so jans when the trearty breaks and then I have loads of resources. Janisarry combat is better than cheap jans. They are so hard to build, you want them to last and destroy as much as possible.
Mosque contruction may not yield a lot of resources and nothing long term, but it comes when resources are critical and short. Mostly wood. But maybe the hard wood card might solve that problem. I rush to the third age, need wood for 2 TCs, a mosque, mosque upgrades. and market upgrades. The third shipment usually comes just when the third age arrives.
Adv arsenal should come before eng and riding school so you have enough time to do all the research. I'm also having a little trouble with gold. I may want one factory on gold until the treaty breaks. Although textile mill may solve that.
Where's improved building? Maybe that's 14th. Turks are so slow, they need strong walls.
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