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Post by punkybruster on Dec 4, 2006 13:37:21 GMT -4
Now that we have food "under control," it's time to think about gold production. 10 banks, 2 factories, 50 plantations with FOUR HC upgrades. Dutch ally anyone?
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Post by boorules60 on Dec 4, 2006 14:37:30 GMT -4
I don't know if this could outproduce the French or not... they have TONS of powerful upgrades (including unique church) as well as 2 factories and a base plantation rate that is much higher than yours. I know per pop the Dutch are the way to go but if it's pure quantity per civ that we're looking at, I dunno.
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Post by d on Dec 4, 2006 14:49:24 GMT -4
Or, how about both? French ponies and ryders too. Who has wood? Or could the Iroquois travois be the answer?
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Post by pcups on Dec 4, 2006 16:09:58 GMT -4
Dont rule out the aztecs and their 9 gold up grades, 99 peasants on plantations could probably out produce both the dutch and the french (not both at once). But yea we should think about gold, the dutch always have a problem with gold since their units die pretty quickly and they can build them so far. So if tim goes gold he cant use ruyters and if the french guy goes gold he cant use cuirs either . We have to think of a good unit combo where gold isnt an issue.
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Post by pcups on Dec 4, 2006 16:11:40 GMT -4
Off topic- So ive been leaving my AIM service on just because i forget to turn it off while im at school. Ive gotten some pretty funny messages while ive been away and my mom has probably read them. Like ben's "will you marry me" or shane's "dude i just took down memory lane, remember when we held eachother"
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Post by boorules60 on Dec 4, 2006 16:51:58 GMT -4
Wood becomes a non-factor later in the game for most civs... it only builds arty (100 wood apiece or free from factory)... or 100 wood for strelets which I easily regenerate from 'wood trickle' and/or a factory. It's only really a problem if you get cleaned out, but even so, you're probably going to lose the game anyway! I usually don't even bother to research the capital improvement for wood because I can build 12-3 orps for that price! I would say the solution to late game wood is in factories and wood trickle and allowing all your peasants to gather resources from a better source like gold that is faster to get. Travois would be helpful earlier on for making plantations (since we won't need farms) and livestock pens are cheap and not worth it.
I think the aztec could have REAL potential for being the heart and soul of the gold as well. If they had max vills/priests in the firepit making skull knights (their only good unit) and focused everyone else on gold (and don't forget about boats/canoes for some maps), then they could overcome their lack of good units and build a deck focused around gold/economy/navy and not worry about units other than skulls at all! Huuuuurray Aztecs?
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Post by boorules60 on Dec 4, 2006 16:54:49 GMT -4
I sent you the proposal because Jeanine was looking over my shoulder and I told her that you were a very tan hottie that I knew from home and our relationship had beed developing for years behind her back! I told her your screen name was a result of your aching heart for me while I was away at school, and could only be resolved when we spent the night at my dad's when I get out after finals. It all seems pretty true to me!
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Post by pcups on Dec 4, 2006 17:10:01 GMT -4
I agree with ben on both post.
But ben has got a point, skull knights cost 2 pop and ARE the best infranty in the game, 600 hp with out any cards. So if i get 99 villes and 50 fishing boats, i can produce 25 skull knights at a time with NO RESOURCES. or more if i choose to have fishing boats or not. But think about it, dutch or french who have to pay to get their units AND donate their gold. Or the aztecs who jsut give away money because they dont need it. (too bad people dont do that in real life)
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Post by punkybruster on Dec 6, 2006 19:47:06 GMT -4
French imperial economy with 4 plant upgrades + econ theory + factories = 160 gold / sec with 80 pop.
Dutch imperial economy with 4 palnt upgrades + tulip speculation + 8 banks + factories = 115 gold/sec
The french have a higher cap but dutch are more efficient per pop. Since the goal seems to have a large army and small (population) economy the dutch may be a better bet unless there are french units necessary for a particular strat.
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Post by pcups on Dec 6, 2006 21:30:15 GMT -4
But the french AND dutch military cost too much, dont use them for donation gold. We arent talking about a large army, we are talking about donation gold. Neither civ would be good at that. The dutch as we have seen many times run low on gold same with french.
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Post by boorules60 on Dec 6, 2006 22:14:41 GMT -4
Who doesn't use that much gold to be honest... the Ottomans maybe? They probably need their factories for bombards though if we are playing most civs so I can't see where they would be AS helpful. They would benefit a TON by the cow thing and probably only need to go to 75 pop or so as most. Uhhh, all other civs that can think of burn a ton of gold except the aztecs but if we are using the Iriquous/British already, we don't want TWO civs with shitty units. Dunno. Germans are also a possibility but they can use but gold wicked quickly if they are building skirms/dopples/wagons... but they could have 140 peasant pop so that might do it.
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Post by pcups on Dec 6, 2006 22:49:44 GMT -4
I could just make pikemen? But 140 peasants could be useful, actually it would be so useless that you guys wouldnt even have to build peasants.
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Post by mrniceguy on Dec 7, 2006 15:56:04 GMT -4
remember too guys that the aztecs can't produce skull knights and have the attack dance on at the same time. i find that really annoying when i am constantly fighting. also, the aztecs can't make skull knights without cards until the 4th age.
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Post by boorules60 on Dec 7, 2006 15:58:38 GMT -4
lol, did you mean to say useful because I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic. I certainly think the 140 peasants and 2 factories with 6-7 economic upgrades could be a huge help to all of us. You could use the remaining 60 or so pop to build whatever units we need to counter them... whether it be dopples, shaggin' wagons, skirms, pikes... whatever. I still think you've have tons of resources left over for some US time. When we calculate these things, we also have to consider the tribute fee (15%) I think. For example, if the dutch are only 10% more efficient at producing gold than the French at, let's say 50 pop, than it wouldn't make sense to have the dutch player give gold to the French player because we lose some to tribute. However, I believe the cow thing is pretty overwhelming. They do cost 100 food I think, but when they can be collected almost as fast as crates by the Iroquois and British, I think it's well worth it. Is there a card like advanced market or something that eliminates (team or personal) tribute fee? This would be VERY worthwhile for the aztec/Dutch or Iroquois/French players who are the crux of the tributors. I just took a step back and realized that what we're really promoting is pure capitalism in its best form. We are all perfecting the way in which we can use our abilities (civs) in the most productive way that benefits the society (our team) on the whole. Yes, we all need food, gold, wood, buildings, defense, armies, and ways to destroy them. Why not let the person who does each other these things the "best" and most productively do it as much as they can for the whole team. Yes, I can produce as much gold as the Dutch, but if they can produce it at a lower "cost" (population/cards/etc) than they should be the ones to do so for our whole team. This team thing does two things: Reduces our total team villager count while increasing our team resources gathered... and increases the strength of our team defenses and military because the most efficent people are the ones who are building the units!
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Post by boorules60 on Dec 7, 2006 16:10:22 GMT -4
I hear you Nick. If we are going to let the Aztecs do the gold thing, it would be best to let them use as many villes as possible to get the gold that the team needs. Doesn't leave as much room for Skulls. The Iroquois/Brit will have enough on their plate with all the food gathering (keeping in mind that WE have to raise the cows and sheep and send them to that player. And yes nick, this strategy focuses more on the late game once we get ourselves set up.
I could probably be the one to build up our defenses because I have building HP, Blockhouses, and a Wide Variety of Cheap/Fast Building Units that are good at countering. The rest of my pop would go towards 50 orp raids. Since I can't select more than that, it is actually inefficient to use more than 50 at a time. I would probably need less than 99 peasants.
I wonder if D then could get away with a vill pop of 50 (maybe he could be the wood guy if he has good upgrades), and 150 military. He has the best units, so he should be the one making them! 10 bombards and 90 jans approach your base backed up by 50 orps who being flooding in the instant that damn wall hits the ground. FEAR!
I seriously can't WAIT to practice and test this shit out!
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