Jannisaries being 2 pop

[pcups]

We all know the stability patch is coming soon.

Some people believe that ottomans should be one pop.

Tim argues that making them one pop will be useless because it wont affect them.

So lets see if he is right:

D wants 43 jannisaries in 8 minutes. Now the ottmans at 8:30 should have at least 20 peasants out and about.

So normally this is 63 pop. You need 6 houses to support this population (the TC has 10)

So as the ottomans you would need to build 1 church(250)+ 6 houses (600 wood)

Thats 850 wood

Now the jannisary pop is doubled. So that would make 43 jannies plus 20 peasants= 106 population.

So now you need 10 houses. Thats an extra 400 wood.

so that would bring the grand total of ottoman wood to, 1250 wood.Oh yes! and a barracks. thats 1500 wood.

So now the question is how many more peasants does D have to put on wood instead of food and gold.

Now from german experiance i know that i need about ALL of my houses if i am going to do a merc rush.

And i also know that at around the 8 minute mark i have around 1000 wood(spent or in reserve). This includes 2 settler wagons and 4 peasants. Total of 8 peasants. This is un uprgraded of course.

Of course this is all of D needs. IF he has 8 peasants on wood for his normal 1 pop ottoman rush. No biggy right.

So now he needs 500 more to complete the ultimate rush if the ottmans are two pop.

So lets say he gets an upgrarde for his peasants by now. So now it should take around 3:30 to get 500 wood more.

Now we know the ottoman new rush time would be like.

11:30

So lets ask what other people are doing around 11:30

Chris: Probably could have 200 strelets at this point if he wanted.

Ben: Probably has around 10 of his ponies and 20 skirmishers

Patrick: Been in the 3rd age for more than 5 minutes i already have 25 lancers and 20 of any other unit. Probably pikemen.

Tim: He might actually have an army and the economy to sustain it by this time. I dont really know much about the dutch just that their banks are on the pricey side and not many are up around this period.

Patrick with Germans- Would have destroyed all of his opponents bases by this time. If not just advance to the 4th age and get even more mercs.

So this is just a summary of what would be going on during 11:30 if the ottomans had 2 pop jannisaries. Alot

Tim says the 2 pop thing doesnt matter, the only thing that it does is ruin the ottomans late game.

Well now you know what its like to play germany.

And thats what you get when you have the best infrantry in the game

[tandler]

Dude, 11:30... I could probably have like 200 guard strelets with the advanced arsenal up grade in that long... i mean thats basicly an eternity for the russains... and we all know that'd i'd never make that many strelets... probablly a little bit of everything... some cossacks, some strelets some musks... u know maybe even some artillery although we all know how much i use that... And also... Paul at this point would be at his peak, being the worst time to attack him... alex... well alex might put up a fight but being the ottomans as well... probably not... Jake would probably already have a full fleged military complete with ponies and artillery... Oh... Patrick... i was trying my strelets against some of ur mercs... and i found out that basicly u know those landecraps u get... basicly are pwned by strelets... those hackapells tho would probably get to me... but i think my strelets and Muskteer barrier could probably at the very least buy some time for my allies to be able to defend themselves... its a shame tho to waste all those strelets ... on someone else ... haha i'd much rather waste them protecting ur mercs... haha

[pcups]

I agree

[boorules60]

You guys are crazy. There's no way in hell that 400 wood for 4 houses is going to delay D 3 minutes... maybe one and a half which is fair. Think about it... if the only thing you can do in 3 minutes is put up four houses, then you don't belong on this forum. Don't rely on the 2 pop thing to slow him down THAT much. The only thing is does is hurt his late game a bit... but how often do we max out our population before the game is decided? 1 out of 3 games maybe? My point is, the janassaries are too good to be one pop. They're about the equivelent of 2 musketeers in nearly every manner. Make them that way.

[pcups]

Why wouldnt it?

What if dopplesoldners or mecenaries were one pop, Fuck i would have them by 7 minutes.

But even if you guys dont agree on that.

They still need to be 2 pop
Reasons:
1. They are the best infranty unit in the game.
2. Dopplesoldners cost 125 gold and jannisaries cost 25??? almost makes sense. If it does to anyone please explain.
3. God damn if dopples are gonna have less Hp, not have a ranged attack and cost 5 times more than jannisaries and are 2 pop. THEN JANNISARIES SHOULD BE TOO

[d]

To quote pcups "I can make 70 of any units in 8:30." I can only make about 35 janissaries in that time. His doppelsoldners beat my janissaires in equal numbers. What's the problem? Tandler can have 2X's as many strelets. Can't beat them 2 on 1. What's the problem?

[boorules60]

Right, PCups, I agree that Jans should be two pop. What I'm saying is, it's really NOT going to slow D down by more than a minute for his rush, so D, you and P Cups don't have anything to complain about.

Dopples desearve to be two pop because they're good against everything, including buildings. Jans and Dopples are the best infantry in the game by far... hence, they SHOULD be two pop. Both are b u l l s h i t units that need to be revamped. My horses are the best in the game... and they are 3 pop instead of the traditional 2. It works like that. I don't deserve an army of 100 horses; you and D don't deserve an army of 200 dopples/jans.

Furthermore, you guys can build them in the 2nd age. I need a god d a m n card to even have hope of countering them at that time. THAT is c r a p! Skirms are weaker than both, and aren't good against buildings like yours are. I can't build them til the 3rd Age? BULL

[pcups]

Yea dont talk about ANY body being revamped benjamin until your little peasants are taken care of. I really think they should keep the resource gathering bonus. But not the HP, Nuh uh. man those guys are not to short of tanks haha.

And trust me i dont think dopples should be 1 pop.
But if d can build 3 to my ever dopple. And dont say thats bull s h i t because D can easily buy 3 jannisaries to my dopples. Cost wise jannisaries are vastly supperior.

[d]

You guys don't seem to get it. Yes the turks can raise an early rush of 30-40 janissaries by using early shipments. After that, they are very limited until the end game when they can again raise a strong army again. Ages III and IV are a real struggle to stay alive. As far as pcups troubles making a lot of houses for his merceneries, he has a card that allows him to have a house capacity 30 and he gets his mercanaries for free with a 3000 gold church upgrade. Even my 40 janissaries can defeat his mercenaries. If he doesn't build an army to protect himself while getting mercanaries, a rush will get him. His spanish, the brits and the russians develop so quickly a rush is unlikely to work.

[pcups]

Yes i agree, rushing me while im actually getting my mercenaries would most certainly deffeat me, which is why i plan do something... a little different.

[tandler]

yes, currently D's Jannisary rush would only do 1 thing and that would be to counter my Strelet/Cossack/Muskteer rush, because... as we all know the russian military is the first to get going, and after the second age... the first to fall in open field combat... that is without some genius military tactics. The main purpose i find of the Russian military is the fact that it keeps coming... my units are all cheaper then yours, and i can build villagers the fastest in the game, with only the ottomans coming closely behind; and thats only with excessive upgrades, i don't need any at all.
2 strelets may barely be a match to one muskteer or janissary or Doppolesoldier, but its ok cause i get them 10 at a time for a fraction of the price... I think that making jannisaries 2 population would be a little too unfair, as they are the ONLY infantry the ottomans can train, see P-Cups unlike ur dopplesoldiers, u can also have several other types of units, D is only allowed Jannisaries, increasing thier population or making them more expensive would hamper his already lacking Miltary.

In my opinion the ottomans lack any advantage on the field with strickly thier jannisaries because even tho they are strong and good against practically anything. They lack the siege that at halbadier or a pikemen might have and they lack the speed of some other infantry. The Ottomans if it wasn't for thier vast artillaray potential would be a rather flat race to play.

[pcups]

No it wouldnt be unfair. I can build dopples and uhlans, D can build jannisaries and hussars. And going into the 4th age which is when many people will max out their population, D is allowed many more cannons because of the low pop cost of the jans. Do you ever see me use cannons? NO, i cant.

Ben has the same problem, he doesnt use cannons as often because of the population of his ponies being 3 pop kinda stops him.

Maybe!!!! if jannisaries cost 100 gold instead of 25 and were still one pop do you guys think that would be fair?

Still less than dopples but seems to be a fair ammount of gold. Being the best infrantry unit in the game


by the way on a completely different subject matter. Am i the only one who seems to like going completely melee.

For some reason ranged just doesnt cut it for me. I mean i can build the best ranged calvary unit and i have some good skirmishers but i dont build them. *shrug* and everybody else seems to be drooling over ranged stuff.

Uhlans/Dopplesoldners
Lancers/Rodelos

[boorules60]

Well, seems like we've gotten into a nice little argument. Sounds like fun.

Here's the main point #1. No civ. deserves to have every kind of unit. Period. French have good light inf and heav calv, and no good artillery and heavy infantry. Ottomans have the opposite. Germans have good infantry, but no artillery and heavy cav (uhlans don't count). Dutch have good light cav and inf, but no heavy cav and artillery. The list goes on. If one civ had everything, the game would suck... you need a variety or civs and units to avoid an Ages II syndrome... which brings us to

Main point #2. Good civs should be weakened and weak civs should be strengthened. Not by changing who has what units and attributes, but how good the effects of each special unit and attribute is. Look online. Most people play the Germans, French and Ottos... they are overall the best civs because people will use what is best. Fewest people play the Ports and Russians... they are the worst. Thus, to make the game more even, the civs should change a little bit to give all civs more of a fighting chance (again, unlike ages II). All civs deserve the strengths and weaknesses they have.

Main point #3. Therefore, the same can apply to units. Units that everyone uses are probably too good and ones they don't are probably too weak. Dopples, French horses, Jans, Ruyters, Lancers, etc... everyone uses and are probably too good. Pikemen, crossbows, dragoons, cav archers, natives, etc... are too weak. All of these units should be changed. Dopples should not be good against everything. Jans should not have 10,000 hitpoints. French horses shouldn't beat musketeers and dragoons... but the idea is, they DO. To make the game fairer, they all should be changed.

Everyone has units that they are good and bad against. Everyone has Civs that they are good and bad against. It really SHOULD work that way.

The reason you don't build ranged units Pat, is because you don't have to. Dopples are good against everything other than MAYBE skirms and some cannons... and your Uhlans (which you often get for free) take care of those. Yeah dopples are expensive, but what can you expect when they are good against so much stuff and you get cheep/free cavalry that compliment them so well?

[boorules60]

Also, where are Jake, Nick, and Alex on this forum? Have you guys talked to them?

[pcups]

I believe what ben said is true, We dont a nother ages 2 slump where the saracens and koreans rule while other people try to make ways of beating just them. I think every unit should have a role in ages 3. From crossbowmen to dopplesoldners to heavy cannons.

I also dont think i use melee just because of dopples, i also use melee with the spanish. I mean yea spanish have some good ranged units. But whats the point. I mean yea lancers are nice but they dont well against pikemen or other melee guys.

And i also think that i found a better way to use hte portuguesse.