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Post by boorules60 on Oct 10, 2006 0:14:07 GMT -4
Some might argue that the 3v4 game we played on Sunday was one of the greatest games of all time on Age III (in addition to a few other that you can see at the forum). Neither team seemed to have a distinct advantage at the time we stopped playing, and yes Jake and Arseney, you were 10 seconds away from losing ALL of the skirms and Lancers in Josh's base. I know the game could have gone on for another few hours (and even MORE hours REAL time) but I think it's fair to say that everyone enjoyed the game big time.
In light of all this, I feel slightly dissatisfied that there wasn't a winner. I think we should have a rematch sometime this weekend. I know there is a band show Saturday night, and everyone has different work schedules and such, but we should be able to find some time Saturday morning/afternoon or Sunday. It would probably take some quick planning to get Josh and Arseny available with all of us, but it would be a great way to end the Age III era before the expansion! Same teams, same NR, same map, and same civs! I know we can beat you this time.
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Post by Jake P. on Oct 10, 2006 14:28:51 GMT -4
Ben I think that your optimsim is great. However, I think that we had the upper hand. Tim and I were able to hold the home front AND maintain assaults. Even if you had destroyed the armies in Pats base, they would have been back up in 30 secs and you would have to push us all the way back again. Your raiding was having little success in all definitions of the term. As for D's attack, he was doing very well and would have been able to make up his lost ground.
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Post by boorules60 on Oct 10, 2006 15:55:27 GMT -4
Good point Jake, my raids were completely and totally ineffective... in all definitions of the term. Besides getting 4 of your 8 factories (including eliminating the bombards... the only driving force in the north), killing 44 of Tim's 50 vills, killing 30 of Arseny's vills (twice), pushing D's base back across the half way point, and drawing 50-100 of your AND Tim's Ruyters off the front lines so Patrick Josh and I could attack the artillery with more success, you're absolutely right; the raids were failures. This stands in stark contrast to the "success" of the 0 factories, 20 of my vills, 0 of Patrick's, and 10 of Josh's that you guys collected through raiding and attacking.
I would also have to enlighten you into the decline of D's attack in the north. When his bombards were at their prime, you destroyed all the barracks and stables that Josh and Patrick had in my base, in addition to opening the walls for non-stop raiding. However, when his factories fell, we not only rebuilt the barracks and stables, we managed to put back all the walls and push his attacks back closer and closer to his base. All this occurred while we were gaining a surplus in resources that we were about to devote to helping Josh take on you and Arseny which he had been doing successfully for over a half hour game time. If all this implies that "D is doing very well" and you were "making up for his lost ground" I don't know what could possible imply more success and an upper hand on your part.
Fun with facts: 2 imperial falconets have 1 more pop, 150 fewer hitpoints, 300 less siege attack, 2 fewer range, 2 less line of sight, and "cost" way more resources than a factory could generate in the minute or two that is takes to produce a bombard.
But as you guys were confessing, the loss of the factories/bombards was all but meaningless. Right?
QED Jake. PWNED.
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Post by pcups on Oct 10, 2006 18:30:34 GMT -4
Ben, you should become one of those guys who sits down on week nights and argues with people and wins. You would make a lot of money.
And you are right.
The fact that we were on sonora was a major disadvantage to both teams. But hopefully we wont get sonora again. I did not plan accordingly, but i quickly cleaned up my act. The only reason jake that you guys even STARTED to get the upper hand was that i was tired and i was starting to lose focus on both battles in the north and south.
Oh and D's bombards were the only reason you were winning in the north jake, and ben took care of that problem. Dont forget who had 2200 kills. With out bombards, it would have been a lot more.
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Post by boorules60 on Oct 10, 2006 19:01:41 GMT -4
lol
And Patrick, if this rematch ever DOES happen, I have a list of major and minor tactical changes that I think would have helped us (and Josh) eventually beat them into submission. Hopefully we get a chance to play this weekend.
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Post by pcups on Oct 10, 2006 19:24:06 GMT -4
yep
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Post by boorules60 on Oct 10, 2006 20:48:14 GMT -4
I still hope Jake gets a chance to read the previous posts in this thread :-)
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Post by Jake P. on Oct 10, 2006 22:00:26 GMT -4
First of all, you need to re-read my post. I said, had little success" That doesn't mean total failure. Second of all, you need to revisit the stats from that game. Yes tim lost 40 villies but he got them all back. In a very short time. After that you never got anymore. Second you did get D's factories, but his imperial field guns and imperial mortars were doing a fine job. Third, I I I killed many of pats peasants. I know because he had a nice little mill (you as well) with 10 peasants on it and I killed them all.
The problem here is that you guys were having trouble fighing on two fronts. Josh couldn't handel Arseny and me and you couldn't handle Tim and D. On top of that, not only could josh not handel Arseny and me but I only had half my total army there. The other half was in the north! At times I only had 1/3 of my total army was fighting Josh because I kept 50 Ruyters next to the factories. And on top of all that, as if it weren't enough, our armies could build so quickly that we could reinforce anywhere quickly!
As far as I'm concered we had a slight edge. That game would have gone on for atleast 2 more hours and I'm pretty sure we would've won.
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Post by Jake P. on Oct 10, 2006 22:00:58 GMT -4
BTW, there was pwning involved in your reply...just creative twisting of my words and mild reasoning.
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Post by Jake P. on Oct 10, 2006 22:05:49 GMT -4
About D's factories: The Ruyters did a great job keeping the bombards and field guns alive to kill green dobbles and skrims. B had successful orp raids but I had over 25,000 resources in everything. We were not on the brink! Like I said before, the cannons and mortars were doing a fine job. And he had plenty of resources. Not too much damage done. You also would not have gotten mine or tims factories.
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Post by boorules60 on Oct 10, 2006 23:25:09 GMT -4
FACT: Noone from your team had a SINGLE UNIT in my base after I got D's factories. Not one. Even though D blasted away a plantation, a blockhouse, a stable, a barracks, no military units entered my base beyond the walls at that point in the game. It's tough to beat me at that point when I am gaining resources because I'm not losing buildings and villagers anymore. Please explain how the mortars and field guns were "doing a fine job" when they weren't forcing Patrick and myself back at all.
FACT: Our team was not low on resources either. After a short time of figuring out the balance between what resources I needed, I had a positive flow of resources for the last half hour of the game. All three of us had our villager count maxed out (even Patrick) as well as a total of 5 factories on resources. D may have had 25,000 resources at the end of the game... but I had 22,000 (15 K in gold) and Josh and Patrick didn't ask for resources for the last 20-30 minutes so I assume they were fine too. I'm positive Arseny had nowhere close to that and I noticed you were asking D for resources frequently as well. I know you weren't close to collapsing with D to fund you but we were not even close to drying up either.
FACT: We were able to control the two fronts quite nicely. It all depended on where Patrick focused his efforts. When he was in the south, they nearly wiped Tim off the map. When he helped me in the north, we fought D out of my base and got his factories. When one front fell, the other succeeded. I would argue that you TOO had just as much of a tough time fighting on two fronts. At the end of the game, Patrick and I had just gained control of the north and were then ready to help Josh in the south. Keep in mind that he was taking on two on one for a while... and still had a higher score than either you or Arseny at the end. Kudos to Josh.
FACT: There is nothing about the orps raids that WASN'T successful. Look at your own words: "I kept 50 Ruyters next to the factories" because you FEARED the orps. As far as I'm concerned, that meant that because of the sporadic orps raids I threw at you, you had to practically WASTE 50 population. And it didn't always work (see Arseney and D for details). Ignoring all the villagers I killed with my orps for a second, how is killing 4 factories, making you constantly waste 50 population out of fear, and periodically distracting everyone from the fighting ground to deal with 20 orps only a "little success"? Please reinforce your claim with proof that you guys had more success... I would prefer numbers such as the number of factories you killed and the amount of population we had to waste out of fear.
FACT: The peasants that you killed in the southern front were a temporary solution when D and Tim had driven me far into my base. Shortly there after, we fought them back and I had more space to work with in the north and rebuilt a mill and plantation there. Your killing my peasants actually was a huge helped because it saved me the time and aggravation of moving them across the entire map.
FACT: Our average score was higher than yours. I know score doesn't mean everything, but it is a combination of the strength of your military and economy in addition to the value on units you build and kill.
FACT: If you are so confident that you had the upper hand, then you shouldn't object to a rematch at all! I should expect a call Saturday or Sunday I assume then! Let Arseny and Josh know about it ASAP. Until then, hopefully you all can perfect your strategy as much as we will. ;-)
FACT: I think the emotion and passion we have for this one game is nearly proof that is was one of the best games of all time!
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Post by Jake P. on Oct 11, 2006 12:40:59 GMT -4
I agree. I think that we both have strong arguments. I really think that this game would have gone on for at least 2 more hours. A winning though is done by changing variables, with out knowing which variables change, you can't determine a winner.
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Post by boorules60 on Oct 11, 2006 13:31:41 GMT -4
Indeed. This is why I think for a true rematch, we should use the same civs we had last last time, and probably even the same map (because even though I hate sonora, another map might favor one team too much). I'm already forming ideas for my major and minor tactical changes! I hope you're ready for them.
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Post by boorules60 on Oct 11, 2006 13:33:34 GMT -4
Arseny will need to use the computer in Tim's room I think so that computer will need a Spanish home city that he can use online. Since he doesn't have an account, he may need to use Nick or Chris' account for the time being. Would Nova and Orion work online to get a high level HC if he plays against computers or against a person with cheats? The only other thing I can see is that our team is separated (with me at school) so we're already taking a handicap.
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Post by Jake P. on Oct 11, 2006 16:43:35 GMT -4
Well, I would love to rematch but this weekend is not the best time. Kendra is back from college this weekend and I'm going to be spending a lot of time with her. Next weekend would be much much better.
Dude Chris and I pwned some guys online. Check out the stats. We played carolina.
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